Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

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Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:29 am

I have two issues I need to have an advice.

1) Disc brake and steel wheel combination
I have fitted Cooper S disc to my Elf with standard 10 inch steel wheel. But they will stick out from the body work, needing wheel arch which I don't wat to fit.
Cooper S reverce rim should solve this problem but if I fit Elf full hub caps, they will stick out because of off set difference.
Do you know any wheels which solve these problems? i.e. Cooper S disc and 10 inch wheels, don't sicking out from body work but can accept Elf full hub cap

2) Handling problem
My Elf have tendency to keep straight very strongly but above some steering angle it steers itself suddenly. Also when braking, it sometimes pulls left or right. It doesn't always do but sometimes. It also pulls left or right when releasing the accelerator. I am checking the tracking. Do you know the case similer to this or experienced this type of problem?
I thought it might be Cooper S disc conversion but set up is basically same as Cooper S set up with normal wheels so this should not affect the handling.
When I drove the car at Somerford Mini, it drove fine so this makes it very difficult to understand.
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  TONYELF on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:50 am

I am taking a keen interest in this because I have aquired some cooper 7.5 discs for my Elf.

Sorry I can't offer any advice,I don't have any experience of this kind of project but if Somerford Mini have set the car up for you I would have expected it to be perfect,certainly pulling the car to a stop in a straight line.

As for braking on a corner it could be a few things, under inflation of tyres/incorrect pressures?
Undulating road surface (rutting,or groove in road) possible (but unlikely) imbalance in the piston pressures, are all the flexible pipes free to twist or are they too tightly twisted to causing a kink (fold) on the turn and restricting the brake fluid to the pistons?
I have had a mini fail the MOT due to this.

The reverse rim business I will have to leave to the experts on this forum!

Please keep us in the "Know" so that other members can benefit from your exerience Smile


Last edited by TONYELF on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling!)

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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Hi, Tony.
Thank you very much for your advice.
I and my Mechanic both checked brakes and they are spot on!

The biggest problem is not under braking but when doing normal driving.

I will let you know when I find out the reason.

I have driven a lot of converted early Minis but I never had this type of problem.

I have spoken to Somerford Mini and they think it might be tight differencial. I will check on that too.
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  Elf Service on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:47 am

Converting to Cooper S disc brakes is quite straight forward as you have found out but as the track is wider, you will need to fit Cooper S steering arms and get the tracking adjusted. Keeping the standard arms will cause unpredicatable handling as the steering geometry even with correctly adjusted tracking will only be true when driving in a straight line. I found this out the hard way so I know exactly what you are experiencing. I think the steering arms from the later Mini with 8.4inch disc brakes will also do.
Regarding the wider track and standard steel rims, yes the wheels are pushed out a little further but not enough to warrant the need for wheel arch extensions. If you look at the image of my car, this has Cooper S disc brakes with standard steel rims and later hub caps. To finish the brake conversion, fit later Mini drums and longer wheel studs (later Mini) to the rear to bring the rear wheels out to match the front.
Another thing to consider and again this is from experience, you really need to fit a remote servo as Cooper S disc brakes without servo assistance are not as good as the original drum brakes. You will need to use an inlet manifold from a later 998cc Mini with servo take-off and appropriate plumbing. Make sure you have a compensating valve (usually fitted to the rear subframe in Elf and Hornets) otherwise the rear brakes will have a tendency to lock-up making driving quite entertaining, especially when cornering.

Good Luck.

Andrew
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:39 pm

Thank you very much Elf service for very detailed advice.

Mine already has brake servo fitted and competley rebuild by Somerford Mini so there should be no mix up of suspention arms etc.
However, I will check the points you mentioned.

About type and body relation, Japanese law doesn't permit even slightest tyre sticking out from body work. Mine failed shaken (equivalent to MOT).
I have fitted detachable arch(!!) so it passed the test for now but I need to think about it as police might stop me in the future.

Suspention rebuild picture
http://picasaweb.google.com/bmc1275/Soichi9#

My car restoration pictures (follow 'Soichi' folders)
http://picasaweb.google.com/bmc1275
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:00 pm

Now, the answer!

It is indeed a seased differential!! Differential is nearly in the locking state therefore it is acting like LSD.
No wonder handling is funny and want to go straight.
The problem is that because differential is rocked, it is taking inner CV joint together! The spline in left had side
CV joint and driveshaft is nearly stripped, I need to change these as well.

I am not happy to find out the problem because I haven't driven the car at all.

However, I am happy that car will be fine when I change these parts!!

Thank you very much everyone for the advice!
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  Red Riley on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:11 pm

Soichi,
Did you purchase the car from Somerford, or did they just do the restoration? I'm just wondering if they have any liability to correct the problem?

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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  asahartz on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:25 pm

Even if they have, getting back from Japan to England may be a problem...
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:38 pm

I was thinking about your point. They did the restoration for me. However, because they didn't sell me a car, it is not under warranty what so ever.
Also, it is too far away for them to inspect and you never know what happened to the car since it left Somerford Mini. I think it may be not fair to ask
compensation to them.
I think I will buy parts from UK and fit them.
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Wheels

Post  DyNoRod on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:51 am

I have 7.5 disks, and spacer rear drums - I have not yet fitted them yet, however I managed to buy some 4.5" Cooper S Steel repro wheels from Mini Spares and I am reliably informed that they will not stick out from the arched with 145 tyres and only very slightly with 165s
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  bmc1275 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:41 am

Hi, thank you for your info.

Yes, I believe they are OK as far as width is concirned. Issue is do they take Riley Elf hub caps. I think either they don't fit or they will fit but looks like floating on centre.

I am going to stick with standard steel wheel for now.
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  superworm on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:10 pm

Just a suggestion but if all else fails, you could use regular Mini/Cooper 'S' hub caps and fit domed enamel Riley badges on to them as supplied by::

http://www.classiccapsule.com/self-adhesive-resin-domed-wheel-centre-badge-set---any-size-up-to-60mm-diameter-for-any-classic-car-155-p.asp

I have just purchased a set for my Elfie which is fitted with "Astrali" alloy wheels. My centre caps have the "Astrali" logo on them which are falling off/splitting so the "riley" domed stickers are going on instead....they are superb by the way!

With regard to the brakes, My "S" dics were powered by a regular "S" servo (and my right foot!) but after I fitted a later plastic heater inlet duct and twin horns, there was no room for the servo. This I then mounted under the dash parcel shelf on the passenger side until wifey got nissed with scraping her posh shoes. I have now removed it altogether and fitted Goodrich Stainless brake hoses and I believe the brakes are as good as they ever were.

Tonyelf, if you are fitting regular "Cooper" discs (not "S") then imo a servo is absolutely essential (which is why I bought my Servo in the first place)...they are worse than useless (ie Mk1 single leading shoe brakes) without a servo. Eventually my cooper discs were binned since they kept cracking and I had to replace the discs (rotors in US speak) at least once....my advice is to go with "S" siscs. In any case, you have to remove to whole hub carrier assembly to get at the the discs...on the "S" disc you simply have to remove the little csk retaining screws.


Sorry can't help with the wheels...i could have checked them about 10 yrs ago but I no longer have them (or elf hubcaps) they are long gone.
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  TONYELF on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:04 am

My Elf has the twin cylinder set up
A mate has given me some 7" discs/hubs. I have stripped them down, All bits ie new pistons,seals etc are available from Somerford mini for about £80. Going to have a re-think on the situation.
I'm holding back on this for the moment as I have the cylinder head off whilst trying to find a "ticking noise" presumably from a "slapping cam follower" (according to "expert" in the club")
I'm taking this opportunity to have the head checked out with new valve guides/valves whilst it's off. It's "all systems go" when I get it back to re-assemble it together before next Monday (when my American pal arrives for the Mini 50.) other wise he will be helping me ! affraid won't be much of a holiday for him getting his hands dirty!

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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  Elf Service on Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:02 am

Hi Tony

Re your 7 inch Cooper disc arrangement. With the correct disc pads, these work quite well without a servo but don't expect the braking to be much better than the standard drum brake set-up. They will probably suffer less from fade but that's about it. If you can, go for the 7.5 inch Cooper S discs with remote servo, the brakes will be more like a modern car. I have found the brakes on my Elf to be at least as good as my later MPI Cooper Sportspack despite being smaller in diameter and personally I think they are more responsive but this could be down to disc pad material. If you get chance at Mini 50, you can have a go in my Elf to compare your standard drum set-up v mine with servo assisted Cooper S discs.

Andrew
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  TONYELF on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:47 am

Cheers for that Andrew. much appreciated.
The main reason for thinking about converting to discs is mainly the responce to the brake pedal.
I did mention in a previous thread that I had fitted new drums and linings all round and I was about to give the drums a clean out and re adjust, which I have. All seems well, the linings have bedded in well, handbrake and drums re adjusted. There is a slight improvement I'm pleased to say but think they could be better!
Still waiting for cylinder head to come back now so Elf is going nowhere FAST!

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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  discoman41 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:47 pm

superworm wrote:fit domed enamel Riley badges on to them as supplied by::

http://www.classiccapsule.com/self-adhesive-resin-domed-wheel-centre-badge-set---any-size-up-to-60mm-diameter-for-any-classic-car-155-p.asp
.

For the record if you look at the pictures of my Elf, I retained the original drums all the way round, but fitted 70's polished slotmags. Unfortunately the tyres rubbed slightly on the rear so I had to fit 5mm spacers thus making the wheels stick out slightly. Should really have arches but so far I have resisted, and he flew through the MOT and looks beefier in my opinion whilst retaining a classic original look. Also, he's won a couple of trophies under judges scrutiny since fitting and they never said a thing about the arches!! Laughing

...but what I was leading up to say was that if you look at my wheel centres I had them made by the company above, and they have just done some Mary Quant Daisy ones for t'other half's Mini.

They give a quality service!

Jase
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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  catmint on Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:43 pm

TONYELF wrote:Cheers for that Andrew. much appreciated.
The main reason for thinking about converting to discs is mainly the responce to the brake pedal.
I did mention in a previous thread that I had fitted new drums and linings all round and I was about to give the drums a clean out and re adjust, which I have. All seems well, the linings have bedded in well, handbrake and drums re adjusted. There is a slight improvement I'm pleased to say but think they could be better!
Still waiting for cylinder head to come back now so Elf is going nowhere FAST!

A quick question - what brake fluid are you using ? the synthetic stuff can give the feeling of a spongy peddle because it is slightly compressible. we used it in the midget and I hated the feeling it gave, just like there was air in the system (and there wasn't!)

The other thing I have just really noticed is the difference in quality of shoes - I have just had to go back to std linings (unipart) instead of the competition ones and I can really feel the difference in that he does not pull up as sharp. I seem to recall reading an article about shoes and pads in one of the mags and essentially the conclusion was stay clear of the cheapo stuff and buy recognized brands

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Re: Disc brake and wheel combination ,,,, Handling problem

Post  TONYELF on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:58 pm

You got me thinking there Gordon, I had to go out to check what I am using and it turns out to be Lockheed.

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