Production history

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Production history

Post  bill773mini on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:45 pm

April 1962 - Body seams appear and over riders appear

Just doing some research about the history and read this on the website. Any idea where the April 62 date came from for the seams?

Regards

Bill

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Re: Production history

Post  stonesjones on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:38 am


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Re: Production history

Post  bill773mini on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:39 am

That's great thanks.

But..Who are miniresource? Where did they get that date from, just because someone anonymously writes information on a website and puts a date on a production change doesn't make it fact.

Where is the research and documented/photographic fact to back up the April date?

So I would still love to know where the date comes from? (I will ask them) Sorry actually what I'd really love to know is when the seams changed!

I know of a Feb 62 built Hornet (sadly scrapped many years ago) that had seams. I know of a 3 other very early cars all with seams. I know of only 2 cars world wide genuinely without, both are September 61 built and right at the start of production. All documentation and paper work suggests that only the first doz or at most couple of doz hand built cars were deseamed.

Sorry to be such a pain.. Laughing


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Re: Production history

Post  TONYELF on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:32 pm

Bill, are you referring to the "time line" on main page?
If so, that was me.I collected that particular line and date from Jon Presnell's new book "Mini the definitive History"
Jon has written this book with the aid of many chaps off the design and development and experimental departments who worked with Issigonis
at the the development stages of the mini and it's variants.

As you know we are not supposed to breach copyrights so would be grateful if you do speak to Jon that you have read his book.You may borrow mine if you like if Library haven't got one.

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Re: Production history

Post  stonesjones on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:37 am

Most of the information gathered today will come from gaydon.
I've always been slightly dubious about the exact dates given, as it was more likely what was left in the parts bin as with most bmc cars. My 67' Mk3 Elf certainly had Mk2 parts on it when built.
However, I had an imported MGA where it was impossible to read the chasssis number. With great thanks to Richard in the Archive department at Heritage, using records and production accounts we thought we had it cracked. By chance, the wife of the previous owner found the US title certificate. We were 20 cars out with our estimation, not bad out of 100,000 cars.
Anyway, ( I always get side tracked ) my Mk1 Hornet was built in February 62 with the Fisher Ludlow plate of 125 and it was defintely deseamed from the scuttle down at the front. One of the sides has never been touched by rust or human hands since leaving the factory but even better I have a picture of her in 1964 in all her glory.
Someone once told me that they had real problems with the early Mk1 Elf and Hornets because the de seaming made the doors wobble a lot. This may be true but i think it was also due to costing.
One reason why a few of the cars no longer retain their deseamed fronts is more probably because they rotted away and needed replacing.
I've always wandered how many of these early Elfs and Hornets are left? Any clues?
Maybe its time to find out?

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Re: Production history

Post  bill773mini on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:22 am

Bill, are you referring to the "time line" on main page?

I was Tony yes, thanks for letting me know, we helped Jon with all the early cars (59-60) information when he was writing it so know the book well. Thank you very much for the offer to borrow yours, very kind.

Jon has written this book with the aid of many chaps off the design and development and experimental departments who worked with Issigonis

I have had the privilege of meeting and speaking at length to John Sheppard and he confirmed that there were indeed two reasons for the re adoption of the standard seams. I am still in touch with him so will ask the questions again.

Someone once told me that they had real problems with the early Mk1 Elf and Hornets because the de seaming made the doors wobble a lot
.

Cost being the first but also as you quite rightly say the doors made the whole wing panel wobble quite a lot. However dates are harder to track down, especially as the body books don't show a change point.

my Mk1 Hornet was built in February 62 with the Fisher Ludlow plate of 125 and it was definitely deseamed from the scuttle down at the front. One of the sides has never been touched by rust or human hands since leaving the factory but even better I have a picture of her in 1964 in all her glory.


Fantastic piece of information, thank you so much Steve! That is the first concrete proof I've heard of either way and at least puts a date after then, brilliant. (early body in yours) Do you remember how they were constructed? There are various theories from a toggled over lap to conventional de-seaming!

What happened to the car? Do you have any photos?

I've always wandered how many of these early Elf's and Hornets are left? Any clues?
Maybe its time to find out?

I quite agree, someone should start a Mk1 register to find out. Very Happy
I know of two September ish 61 Elf's but no Hornets.

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Re: Production history

Post  Elf Service on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:42 am

I briefly owned a Mk1 Elf with a Feb 62 build date. It came with the half cloth half leather trim, the mechanical boot stay and although with standard Mini seamed wings the Heritage certificate mentioned the original order included optional over riders. So these were available but you paid extra for the additional metalwork. This Elf is in the final stages of a major rebuild and hopefully will be on the road next year.
I know of another March build 62 Elf, again with the same seamed wings and these are original and this has the boot stay and half cloth trim.
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Re: Production history

Post  catmint on Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:39 pm

Hi Folks

Gaydon's production (car ID, etc) records do not make any mention of changes in production details. We have the MkI records uptil May and there is no comment on seams, etc. With regard to optional extras - as well as over riders, the screen washer and heater (re circulatory or fresh air)were extras as well. Other options that have come up as well are:

Radio
White wall tyres (sent to Hong Kong and Cyprus)
carb heater - tended to be for Scandinavia)
Heavy duty battery " "
Canada and Swedish specs - your guess is as good as mine, but probably similar to above !
Steering lock
4 ply tyres

There is also one with a "Special Body" listed - built on the 17/1/62 - could this have been the first seamed car as a test bed (it was an elf) ? Sounds like a good hypothesis to get a discussion going (it wasn't the beach car as these were produced before this date) Car number 230166 is also missing details, potentially built on the 24/3/62 - I say potentially because there are no details but the car numbers on either side were built on this date

Just a bit more food for thought - date of first registration is not necessarily near to the build date - Humphrey is an early 62 MKII, but was not registered until 64 !. I tend to get the impression that quite a few of the cars ended up in show rooms so would not have been registered until much later. So we would really need chassis numbers to make definitive production date changes - unfortunately the Fisher Ludlow number is not referenced in Gaydons records either

It will be interesting if we can narrow it down to a date







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Re: Production history

Post  1071kev on Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:16 pm

stonesjones wrote:Most of the information gathered today will come from gaydon.
I've always been slightly dubious about the exact dates given, as it was more likely what was left in the parts bin as with most bmc cars. My 67' Mk3 Elf certainly had Mk2 parts on it when built.
However, I had an imported MGA where it was impossible to read the chasssis number. With great thanks to Richard in the Archive department at Heritage, using records and production accounts we thought we had it cracked. By chance, the wife of the previous owner found the US title certificate. We were 20 cars out with our estimation, not bad out of 100,000 cars.
Anyway, ( I always get side tracked ) my Mk1 Hornet was built in February 62 with the Fisher Ludlow plate of 125 and it was defintely deseamed from the scuttle down at the front. One of the sides has never been touched by rust or human hands since leaving the factory but even better I have a picture of her in 1964 in all her glory.
Someone once told me that they had real problems with the early Mk1 Elf and Hornets because the de seaming made the doors wobble a lot. This may be true but i think it was also due to costing.
One reason why a few of the cars no longer retain their deseamed fronts is more probably because they rotted away and needed replacing.
I've always wandered how many of these early Elfs and Hornets are left? Any clues?
Maybe its time to find out?

Hi, regarding the de-seamed A panels, you say your car still has an untouched A panel joint. Can you tell how this is formed? I have an early Elf but corrosion and previous repairs have lost the original details. I plan to start the body repairs in the next couple of weeks and any help would be much appreciated.

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