A+ Engine Compatibility

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A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  JMH on Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:49 pm

A simple question, but before I end up with the car off the road for more than a weekend:
My daughters' Elf runs OK but has an odd noise somewhere in the bottom end, so we're going to take the engine out & have a look. I've an A+ 998 engine in the back of the shed which could do the necessary whilst the original engine is sorted out. However, I know the ratios of drop gears etc are different between pre & post A+ 998s & the crank part numbers are different, but what if any is the difference on the primary gear end of the cranks? will a pre A+ primary gear fit on to the tail of an A+ crank (so I can just drop an A+ 998 onto an Elf remote box) as a quick fix, or is it a no-go?

This may sound like a silly question, but I did bucket loads of messing about with mini engines long before the A+ saw the light of day, but then took 25 years out (marriage, kids etc) so I'm a bit green on the A+!

Any advice to save me (& daughter) hastle would be very much appreciated....

Cheers,

JH

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  elfgirl on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:54 pm

JMH wrote:A simple question,
Cheers,
JH

I'd hate to see a tricky one, you've got me totally confused - mind you, that's easily done!
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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  Red Riley on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:58 pm

I don't know the straight answer, but is it just an upper engine sat in your shed? It seems the simplest thing would be to swap the whole lump, tranny and all.

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  bmcelf on Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:05 am

Previous owner put an '81 Metro 998 A+ lump in my Elf. I got it that way and am very happy with it.
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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  cheleker on Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:18 pm

You can use the A+ engine. Use the A primary gear (and other drop gears), flywheel housing and gearbox. Also use the A flywheel/clutch assembly. That should leave you with the fewest changes to make.

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  JMH on Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:27 pm

Thanks all for the posts.
cheleker: It looks like the tails of A & A+ 998 cranks are the same then, so I should have no problems.

bmcelf: Is your engine sitting on a pre-rod box with proper remote? If so, that'll be pretty good proof.

Red Riley: I was reluctant to use the rod box as I'd have to weld the front sub-frame to take the lower engine tie-rod & probably drill holes in the floor to fix gear-change end as well (the UK weather puts enough holes in the floor as it is!) & didn't fancy running with only the top tie-bar.

elfgirl: I did try & make it simple - mind you, I failed completely trying to explain how a manual choke works to my daughter & why her elf was "sounding a bit chuggy" on the way to college!

Cheers,
JH

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  cheleker on Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:44 pm

You wouldn't have to weld to adapt the later mount. They're pretty worthless anyway. Aftermarket stabilizers are made to fit from either side of the gearbox back to the subframe. One hole to drill in the subframe.
However, going to the A+ would require having all of the rod change shifter mechanism and mounts as well as adapting the rod change mounting (made for a square tunnel car) to your round tunnel car. You're also looking at a change of axles to accomodate the later, inboard CV joints. But wait, there's more! The starter is different and will require a little rewiring. You'd need to play a little with the radiator mounts to use the early radiator, and there's probably a few more I've forgotten.
None of the changes are hard, but I'd rather just drop the A+ engine on the older gearbox and use all the parts that are already part of the A power unit (including the starter).

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  JMH on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:19 am

OK. I'm convinced! I'll give the A+ engine the quick once over & if the knock becomes any worse in the original engine, I'll do a straight swop & drop the A+onto the original box - I'm not a glutton for punishment!
Cheers,
JH

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  catmint on Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:59 pm

The other thing to look out for is the water pump - some A+ do not have the cyl head bypass hose as the water piping was different to take account of this, so either a head swap and new pump or modify the water system !

Gordon

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  cheleker on Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:33 pm

Gordon, Good point. Easiest solution is to drill a few small holes around the outer, seating surface of the thermostat.

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  Elf Service on Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:48 am

The improvement in the later gearbox is really worth the effort. The gear change is silky smooth with syncro on all forward gears and the bearings in the casing (transfer gears) are bigger so longer lasting, especially if you wish to un-tap some of the potential extra power. If you wish to keep originality and keep the changes to a minimum then fine but the improved driving experience is really worth all the trouble.
Re the round tunnel v the later square arrangement, I simply cut out a tunnel from a scrap later mini and tack welded this on top of the existing floor. If I decide to put the car back to the original set up, a couple of minutes with an angle grinder will reveal the old round tunnel. To make life a little easier, I used a non-verto clutch/lightened flywheel which enabled me to use the old starter motor.
Re the pot joints, these are far easier to deal with and if you intend fitting a stage one kit, these give you more room to accomodate the long centre branch exhaust manifold. I'm sure this debate will run on but having both a standard Elf and the later A+ arrangement, the A+ wins hands down.

Andrew
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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  bmcelf on Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:22 am

My engine/Gearbox lump was in my Elf when I got it. It has a rod change remote and has the proper floor for the rod change box. I am still trying to figure out what kind of Elf I have. It does run and drive very well. I have no complaints.

The modifications that were done to the original car were done by previous keepers in England and I am just trying to sort them out. I suspect a VIN transplant.

Jim
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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  catmint on Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:24 pm

bmcelf wrote: It has a rod change remote and has the proper floor for the rod change box.
Jim

New floors normally come with the square tunnel (ie Heritage/Rover)- if a round tunnel is needed then you have to either convert your self of splash out a chunk more money for a M Machine one that they build themselves, so I would guess that it has had a new floor at some point and they did not want to pay or did not know about M Machine (formerly Mini Machine). I think a VIN job is unlikely as it is a bit more complicated on an elf as there is a lot of body to change a normal mini into one, and not really the end value to justify the work

When was the rod change introduced in the mini range anyway?

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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

Post  asahartz on Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:10 am

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the H-reg Elf I had was also rod change.

According to the info I have, the MkIII Elf was introduce in '66 with remote change. The all-synchro gearbox came in in 1968 - I would guess this was when the rod change was added too - so rod change on an H-plate car would be right.
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Re: A+ Engine Compatibility

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